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4 Lessons From a Prolific Marketing Leader To Reach Greater Heights

Jass Binning
Feb 9, 2021 11:24:03 AM

Growth Marketing Camp, Ep. 4

4 Lessons From a Prolific Marketing Leader To Reach Greater Heights

In episode 4 of Growth Marketing Camp, Rex Biberston speaks with SVP Marketing at Aurea Software Kevin Bobowski. A proven leader with a growth mindset, Kevin has a track record of success working with SMBs to major enterprises like Act-On Software. Today, he leads a marketing team who deploy and manage campaigns for private equity portfolios. Tune into this episode to learn about his personal growth experience, tips for marketers starting out in their careers, and the ins and outs of his most memorable ABM campaign. 

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Here's what you can expect on today's episode…

  • 2:00 - marketing career path - from practitioner to leader
  • 6:30 - deep dive on an ABM + field marketing campaign 
  • 13:00 - why this campaign was a success
  • 17:30 - lessons learned from this campaign and others
  • 27:00 - structure of the marketing team at Aurea Software

Read the full transcript:

All right. Welcome to yet another episode of the Growth Marketing Camp, and we are very excited to be joined by Kevin Bobowski, the SVP of marketing and Aurea software. Kevin you've held a number of senior leadership titles in marketing at a number of companies. Maybe most famously and you correct me if I'm wrong, Act-on software who most of us in the marketing realm are very familiar with and even had a little stint on an episode of MSNBC show presenting for Offerpop.

So give us a little of your background there, Kevin. So just quickly, thank you for having me on the show Rex. I'm super excited. I was looking forward to this conversation. So yeah,  I've been in marketing and. Marketing tech now software for almost 20 years. And I probably came from like the most unusual backgrounds.

I was an accounting major at undergrad, a CPA at one point. My first job out of college was internal audit for the defense department. But  when this whole world of data-driven marketing really started to evolve  a while ago when it was in its infancy, Suddenly my skill set became really interesting for the marketing world.

And so  I remember my first exposure to marketing technology and software and digital marketing was. Working in web analytics at the United States, postal service.com USPS.com. And I fell in love with it. I was like, at that point, this was like 2000, 2001. I'm like, I want to be in this space forever.

I worked at USPS.com website for two years. My dad was a postal carrier for 40 years. So he and I would talk shop in very different ways, but it was awesome. And so ever since then, I've never really looked back and just kept building on that experience and web analytics at the postal service.

Incredible. That'll be really interesting to talk maybe about the transition, because I know a lot of practitioners are listening to the show and watching and we'd love to learn maybe how do you go from that transition from very deep knowledge and maybe understanding of the technical side into it, more of a leadership role, because you've held many senior leadership roles and that's obviously a big swing.

That's a huge difference from a marketer. Maybe practitioner only to a marketing leader. You have any maybe history that you could share with us. Yeah, because  having a core competency or a core skill. Is something that I always recommend to folks  in the growth of  their career 

and sometimes I think folks will suggest I want to get lots of different broad experiences. I think that's great too,  my recommendation to folks is get your core competency, like the one area that you're great at and keep building off of that core. And that's what I did. Like I really loved web analytics.

I also loved understanding go to market and  like product marketing and personas that kind of evolved into demand generation that evolved into demand generation of product marketing. Then that evolved into demand gen product marketing, building a great brand. And that led to those senior leadership positions.

And it's interesting, like I'll talk to folks who are looking to become a CMO  and sometimes there's this belief that you have to have all of these skills to become a CMO. Sure. And it's a bit of a unicorn. If you talk to recruiters and CEOs, they will tell you that as well. They're often looking for maybe one or two of those three core competencies.

So I always come back, build your core competency, know who you are, and then expand from that. That totally makes sense. And. Interesting. Let's talk a little bit about then Aurea software, because where you're at now, you have a lot of different opportunities to represent, maybe multiple products to multiple markets.

Can you tell us a little bit about Aurea and who you help? Who's your target audience there? Yeah, so Aurea is a software company. It's a holding company within a private equity firm and the private equity firm buys B2B software companies. And so my team is responsible for building out. Our demand generation and product go to market strategies for these companies that are in the private equity firm.

And so many of these companies for those that are in marketing, they might remember Infer was a predictive lead scoring software, like these are companies that we bring back to market and build out a new customer acquisition model. And so we work with every single type of company. We work with companies that are product led growth with free trials.

We work with companies where we are selling sort of multi-year million dollar deals and then everything in between. So our personas vary a ton based on the product and the deal size and the sales motion and the marketing motions also vary based on the company that we're working with at the time. You guys are almost like an internal agency across multiple.

That's really what you are effectively, right? That's what, yeah, that's the best way to describe it. Some people call it like the center of excellence, but it's almost like an internal agency working on all these different products. And it's been fascinating because you quickly learn that good best practices apply to all products.

Regardless if you're selling a $200 product or a $200,000 product. And that's been one of the really rewarding pieces is trust, the best practices at a work. It could be, it really helps drive performance. Yeah. It makes perfect sense. Now, maybe looking at some of your more specifically,  like one company example, are there any customers that you might be able to name that people would be familiar with, who you've worked with in the current position or just in any?

Yeah, recently we'll give you a good example of how we worked with a couple of really interesting. Brands at my last company at BrightEdge that were pushing the edge on SEO and how to use SEO and organic search to build out their brand. And the deeper story there is build out their brand, but more importantly, compete against Amazon.

And so it was an interesting angle. So SEO, organic search. Good market. As marketers, we love it because it drives free demand for you when you get it. It's awesome. But I also started seeing it as a strategic weapon in the fight against Amazon, which any company that you ask today will suggest that they're competing with Amazon.

So we got to work with some companies that were doing some really innovative things in that sort of competitive space. And that was really interesting. That's awesome. I'm sure you've learned and grown a ton, even from past experience through this new experience now. So I'm sure you can name a million companies in a million different lessons, but let's dig into a particular campaign or maybe a type of campaign that you've run in the past.

And talk to me maybe about the goal of this campaign to start off. What were you trying to accomplish? Something in mind? Yeah. So you had posed this question to me when we were doing the prep and it was a really thoughtful question because it made me really think about what has been successful in the past.

And the example that I'll give is an ABM slash field marketing example, and  what we were trying to do at the time.  At this company was we needed to close bigger deals. Big enterprise deals and we had not yet developed kind of the muscle memory to do that. And so we decided to launch field marketing activities and we focused first on field dinners, big dinners.

And so  the goal was. We got people in the pipeline but we can't close these big deals. How do we use ABM and field marketing together to try to help move these deals through the pipeline, help the sales organization close some of these big deals. So that was the objective. Would you say that's maybe mid funnel opportunities then like in some way you've already engaged them or were they still for funnel?

That's a really good question. So we were doing both. So we were finding that there was a set of deals. That we're at the finish line, there were competitive deals against competitors and if we can get those people to the dinner we knew we had a chance to influence them and close that and win that deal.

Yeah. What we quickly realized is there's lots of other companies that we want to engage with and calling up and asking them to do a demo or a sales call. There's not a lot of value in that, but if you reach out to them with an offer to meet with other peers in their marketplace to go to a fascinating place for dinner, or like a great venue for like happy hours and things like that, we would find that was a really great intro to getting people into the funnel and that we could eventually work them through the funnel as well.

It sounds like a fascinating campaign strategy I've heard of it deployed before it can be budget intensive. So I imagine you had to be very selective and careful about the ways that you deployed it. Can you tell us maybe a little bit deeper about the audience? Were they exclusively enterprise? Was there some cutoff?

Did you have to have a certain criteria to say, Hey, as a sales rep, I want to invite this person. Yeah,  it's a good question. . If you think about doing a dinner, the dinner itself, isn't that expensive, but there's a lot of people involved and what, mistake we could have made was opening up too broad.

And you had so many people, it just didn't feel right. And so what we did was focus. We found two sales reps, sales leaders who wanted to own the product project or the initiative, the field dinner from their end. And then working with them and their pipelines, we were able to figure out who do we really want to have to the event, right?

Because if marketing drove a bunch of people do a dinner, but it wasn't in the sales person's pipeline. That's probably not going to be a win marketing. We'll celebrate that, but it's not helping sales close deals. And so we really went back to this sales leader, who's in Los Angeles and we said, okay, help us.

Find out  which are your prospects, do you want at this event? And he owned it and he got the right people in the room, which was a huge measure of success. And, overall the costs weren't that big. So that was great. And number three is by having that targeted focus and really being dedicated to Hey, these are the companies that we're going after we avoided 

the full sort of try anything, approach, get butts in seats because that's not really going to help move the needle pretty quickly. There is an element of quality here as well as quantity. And I think by introducing the sales reps early, you get that introduction of quality. Yeah, no, that totally makes sense.

I love the hand in hand motion with the sales team, that the salesperson owned some responsibility for even the development of the list, those target accounts, and even those prospects that they want to invite. I'm interested in. The channels that you used for that I imagine are not traditional, like demand gen channels.

You weren't going out broad, or maybe even at that point, it sounds like maybe a few years ago, even using account based marketing, like Tech to serve ads or anything, was this very one-to-one or what were the channels? Yeah, it was pretty one-to-one. We called it,  salmon and steak dinners, not search terms, it was very much kind of this one-to-one. And so we had a couple of different approaches. One was obviously working with the sales organization and the sales leaders. To find their target list of companies that they would want in there. So that was number one. Number two is we made heavy use of our SDR team for those top of funnels.

And that was really an effective way to get. Those people engaged in like that offer that we were talking about, like, how do you offer something to those people? So that was basically calls and emails, right? And we built out some really effective nurture tracks that were custom around that.

And then we did do some select display advertising to promote the event itself to build awareness. So we did have a digital aspect of that as well. Very cool. Can I ask, did you serve that up in a particular piece of technology, like a Terminus or something like that? No, it was before Terminus, but if it was if Terminus was around at the time, I think that would have been something we would have definitely used.

Sure. We've seen some success with our friends at RollWorks as well, and yeah. We live in a very blessed age. You could say where we have a bunch of technology that can do a lot of things that maybe before were more manual. So it's great that you're able to pull that off, before those technologies came out   This is a different campaign, but we've used Terminus and RollWorks and there was another company 

we had used at one point, for that targeted display advertising for our deals in the pipeline. And they weren't necessarily ABM large deals like huge enterprises, but they were more mid-market and we did some pretty effective AB testing on that, and we did see a lift actually in close rates over a period of time. Not dramatic, but we did see a 2 percentage points, when you think about that in the context of a 20% close rate kind of goal, it was material. It changed our thinking a little bit on those technologies, we thought about them as  a mechanism to help close more deals. Certainly they can be helpful for an ABM and going after enterprise deals, but we actually saw that as a mechanism to improve our close rates as well.

Kevin you just buried a gem right in the middle of the interview. This is great. I love it. I'm sure that everyone's going to appreciate that thought because. We all think of it. At least the initial thought is let's use this for top of funnel. Let's get for awareness maybe to drive to some end of a campaign.

But if it's staying in front of them, mid funnel, that's great thought. Yeah.  I love ABM. I think it's great.  We've had a ton of success working on ABM strategies.  When we look at the tactics of ABM, the tactics of ABM on what makes  successful ABM program, aren't new right 

it's all  like good sort of digital marketing. And that's what led us to say wait a second here. Yes, it can be effective for top of funnel, but  why wouldn't we use this to improve our close rates for mid-market deals, right? Why wouldn't we use that to improve our MQL, to meeting book, conversion rates and support the SDRs.

And we've done enough tests over the years to know that's been highly effective for us. Fantastic. Yeah. That's a great learning. So diving back into this campaign. Obviously  that there've been probably dozens or hundreds of campaigns that you've run or overseen directly. What made this one stand out as a particularly interesting or successful one in your mind?

Number one, it stood out because we were all aligned. Everybody within marketing was aligned. The sales team was aligned. We are marching towards the same goal and the same outcome. And I think that seems pretty basic, but sometimes, and I've made this mistake before where you're running marketing programs and campaigns, and they just don't lock into what the sales team needs.

So I think that number one was, there was alignment. Number two was, it was a campaign that drove a lot of internal excitement. Like we had people going out to these great venues. We had people going out to these great dinners. We had marketers who are getting exposure to some of these great prospects of great companies that they typically wouldn't get exposure to except maybe at an annual user conference.

Sure. And so the second part of that was just this excitement and enthusiasm, it drove across the group and it was solving one of our biggest problems, which is how do we really start to close and break down these big enterprise deals? And so, Rex, there's a lot of hard work underneath that, and there's a lot of coordination and alignment but it was like we were aligned with sales,

we agreed to what the success was upfront and it drove a ton of excitement and enthusiasm across the organization, got people really excited. That makes sense from the type of campaign it was, the excitement around it was there also some internal selling of this. Did you have to champion this into more conversations and get people to have some buzz around the office about it?

Absolutely. And I think  we recognize that when we reached out to different sales leaders who had different perspectives on how to use that event. Interesting. And they were all excited, but there were some of our sales folks that said. I'm owning this. I know this customer, this prospect, I'm going to bring this one in So we didn't need to sell it as much to those folks.

 What we had to sell was our capability to deliver a great experience to that person, or to, not to that person, but to their prospects. Because if they were going to bring in these prospects that were huge deals, they wanted to make sure it was a flawless event. , in some cases we had to sell the value to some folks, but I think the sales leaders got it.

They understood it. What we really would had to sell was our capability that we were going to get people, we were going to deliver a great event and the great event,  last thing you want when you're doing an event is having five people in a 60 person room. So they wanted to make sure that we could have the capability yes.

To get quality, but also get that quantity and make it a really successful event. That makes sense and digging in on just one last tactical question for my own benefit, maybe more than everyone else, but I'm very very interested in this. As you were developing this campaign and planning with the sales team, was it a lot of regular coordinated meetings or was it more handled over email and chat or did you guys have to do a lot to coordinate on this or was it very obvious who would be handling what.

No, there was a lot of coordination. And, there was a, there was the sequence of Hey, we're going to do this. We got commitment from the top. That's always important. Yep. We worked through, the sales organization and then when we got our sales reps in place, like the area managers that were responsible, that wanted to own, the events.

That required not day-to-day contact, but we were constantly in discussions around okay, who's coming, where do we need to go? Where are we weak? Who hasn't called? And there was a lot of coordination along with the sales development team as well, because they were trying to get people in.

Setting up those  regular recurring meetings, having like quick. Sprint goals of every three days we want to get this done is the invitation out. Have we followed up on the invite? Like all those things become really important as part of that project plan. Yeah, that's really helpful.

I know getting any tactical insight we can into how you manage such a complex campaign with multiple stakeholders. It's always helpful for the audience here. So I appreciate you breaking that down a little bit further. If you could do it over again, which I imagine you've had many opportunities to try this.

Did you learn anything that, Hey, we would have pulled this lever differently or maybe gone over here and done something strategically different? No,  I've deployed this models to other companies, since then. And. Rex. I think my lesson is do it sooner. Do it more often. And don't hold back on sort of quality of the event.

   The more events we did, the nicer  events, we did, we completely changed the dynamic internally, where maybe in some cases we were trying to find a sales person to partner with. And after you do a couple successful events, the sales people are looking for you and saying I want to do Atlanta.

And in Atlanta, I'm going to, so they were teeing it up for us. And that's what I knew we won. And I've done this at other companies too, and it's just. There's a pride of ownership for the sales work to deliver an outstanding event where they can invite their prospects because it's great for their brand.

Yeah. And so my thing was, like I said, do it sooner, do it more often. And don't spare expenses. Like you, you spend a couple of extra thousand dollars. You could make that from a really nice event to something really special. And you'll get the return on that. No problem. Yeah, that totally makes sense.

Especially with the way you guys were targeting accounts and working with sales to make sure you weren't bringing too many though. You were bringing all the right people to the table. That's great. Yeah.  Almost every time I've done this, there's a little bit of work you gotta do on getting clarity on success.

And on one extreme, it's You invited people to do a dinner and the contracts are over there by the coat room. How many contracts did you sign that day? That's not the plan. That's not the goal there, right? That's not really the approach. The other hand was, Hey, we got 50 people there and we're not really sure where they ended up in the pipeline, but we got 50 people there.

That's like the other extreme. And I think what we learned was. Really breaking it down between top and bottom of funnel, like who are the prospects that we haven't really engaged with, that are on our target list that we want to start to build a relationship with X %. Let's get X % of those, then attract those people through the pipeline.

And the people that we know are expected to close this quarter or next quarter or whatever your timeframe is. Do we see an uptick in close rates? Versus cities and areas where we haven't had people attend those events. And those are typically the, some of the best measure of success because you might not close all your deals of those people that attended.

But if you're closing those deals at a higher percentage than Prospects that haven't been to those events, then, you're onto something special there. Yeah, it's interesting. It reminds me a lot of what we've learned with the gifting strategy that we've deployed at Opensense. And with other companies that have heard of deploying a similar thought process, In terms of the different stages in the funnel where you can deploy gifting and that sort of like surprise and delight type program, does it have an immediate, Hey, did they sign?

Because we sent them this gift when they had the contract in hand, obvious return on the investment, but should you be tracking it instead of just saying, Hey, we're just sending out a bunch of gifts. There's just that middle ground. We have to make sure to cover both ends of that. That totally makes sense.

And the build on that point, it's also depends on the problem you're trying to solve, right? Because the gifting might be a great way to get people into the funnel. If you're struggling to get people into the funnel and then over time, you can see how they convert from top of funnel to bottom and see if there's a difference.

Conversely, if you're struggling, closing deals or people are getting stuck in the middle of the funnel, that's an effective strategy too. And I think that's always. Like looking back at sort of successful campaigns. It's what's the problem you're solving for. And it's always interesting to ask folks what does success look like?

Because you will get, you'll get some different answers and you should, everybody should be crystal clear on what success looks like for these events or marketing programs and campaigns. Totally agreed. Maybe zooming out from this campaign then, and thinking more broadly about growth marketing, right?

And we think of growth marketing is as any marketing effort or any marketer who's mentality is one of growth that could be you better entrenching yourself within your marketplace, better positioning so that you can grow at a more rapid pace or. Yeah, obviously, sales metrics. So what's maybe one thing that growth marketers out there are doing that they should stop doing or aren't yet doing that they should consider doing.

Yeah. So my general sort of like philosophy on growth marketing is diversity diversification, and where I have seen companies. Be less successful than they'd like is when they're highly dependent on one channel within growth marketing. Interesting. So 80% of their demand or their pipeline comes from a single source.

Yup. And that's fine. That's great. But that's really just step one. What they need to be constantly building is what's the next channel. That's going to drive material pipeline and revenue. What's the next channel after that. And so Rex, the problem that I have seen, the mistakes that I've made and others have made that I've seen is number one, you relied too long on that single channel.

And at some point you're getting to a growth rate and sort of a level of growth in revenue that, that single channel will never be able to help you grow to continue to grow at 20%, 25%, 30%. Yup. The complete opposite. end of that problem, and this is a problem I've made as well, or the mistake I've made. So you know, is, gosh, 

we need that diversification across nine channels. Let's launch like data other channels next week. And you end up in a total disaster and then you spend the rest of your time trying to unravel what you've done. Yeah. And I believe that what marketers growth marketers need, whether it's a demand gen program, it's a brand campaign it's customer like whatever it is that you're doing, you really need to think about phases of how you launch these channels.

And these channels can be. They are fully operational. They're hitting all of our targets and there's room for growth. Let's keep rolling and doing that. That's the sustain, there may be channels that you need to launch and you're in a pilot. But you want to focus on those because it's going to take a lot of effort to move that from pilot to delivering results to sustainable results.

And so the mistake I think marketers will do is try and do all of those at once. And then you're not really clear what stage you're in and you're letting these programs run that you could easily optimize and get performance out of. But because you're so worried about standing up the next one and the next program and the next activity, you can't go back to optimize.

And then you have a lot of programs that are performing at suboptimal levels. And I can tell you that might work for a quarter or two. The board will eventually catch on. You will eventually be presenting this in some format other than, story-based where you have to own up to some of those figures in those numbers.

And as a numbers guy yourself, I'm sure you have been able to see that. When you don't have the right numbers, it can be a very uncomfortable conversation or presentation to have. Yeah. And Rex, you bring up a good point, right? Because a, some of those tactics can work for a quarter two. And actually what the fool's gold in that is, it will look awesome in the first quarter too, because it's like, Wow.

Kevin has come in. He's launched eight new channels for us in less than 30 days. And what's going to it'll catch up to you soon where you realize, like I can't optimize this. We're spending more money than we should. We're not hitting our economics targets. If they're are not hitting our production targets and it doesn't set you up for a sustainable longterm successful run.

Yeah. I think having that long-term mindset will be very useful, especially as those of us who were  practitioners are moving into leadership and not just thinking about that, how do I have the splashiest entrance, which is very tempting, right? Marketing has a lot of opportunity for splash.

We can do a lot of things that, look, they have a lot of sizzle, but not a lot of stake. Yeah. And you bring up a good point because.  You could end up running, like you could start it in the first quarter and say, Hey, we got one channel. We're adding all these other eight channels.

Sometimes that's pressure from the board. Sometimes that's pressure from the CEO it's pressure from the sales org. There's this push on marketing, the shiny new object syndrome where Marketers are susceptible to clinging onto the next shiny object and saying, this is going to solve all the world's problems.

Sales. will do that and they'll ask marketing to execute on that. So that's a very real problem. And so what ends up happening, even if you're a marketer and you don't want to launch all these new programs, sometimes you're forced to your hand is forced to do that. And what you end up having to do, because you want to be flexible and accommodative.

You don't want to shut down every new idea. What I have learned there is defining success. Like I was talking about before. So If we are going to launch this program, what does success look like to you? What does success look like at week one, week two, week four? And I think that keeps everybody on the same page because otherwise, what happens is, you can launch some of these programs.

They're not successful, and then everybody's trying to figure out like what happened. So, setting expectations on some of these new things can be really important because let's face it, you've been in marketing and sales, the pressure's on and almost every day, there's a new suggestion on what you need to do.

Yep. Yep. One of the most dangerous Slack channels for everyone to be invited to is that marketing channel. Everyone has an idea. Everybody has an opinion. That's a great, yeah. Somebody told me once that Everybody is a marketer at heart. So they think they can do marketing well. And, nobody  ever goes to the CFO and questions, their, accounts, receivable strategy but everybody has an opinion about marketing and sales.

And I think that's, what's actually cool though, because you get a lot of good feedback and you get a lot of opportunities to improve and try new and different things. The risk there is you try lots of new, different things and you don't successfully nail any one of those. That's a great reminder, a great lesson.

Let's break down a little bit of where your team is at right now, the size of the team, what components of the team do you have staff for right now? I think this is one of my favorite parts of these interviews. I get to learn a lot about how. Leaders are thinking about building teams around these initiatives.

So what is the size and kinda structure of your marketing team right now, knowing that you're that internal agency? Yeah. So the way we structure the team is you will have a  VP director level. We have a manager level and a, sort of an analyst level. And we will have the same structure for all the different channels that we participate in.

So paid search or paid social. We'd lump with LinkedIn, Facebook, YouTube. That's like a separate email nurture ABM. Field marketing. Like all of those will have that same structure and Rex. What we really try to do because we work on so many different companies and we want to build that sort of scale.

 The analyst we have worked with on a very specific sort of workflow daily workflow that they need to go through so that they're continually focused on optimizing these programs.  These campaigns, the managers are essentially coaching. The analyst on how to do that and make sure they're in their lanes and doing all the right things and always looking for opportunities to optimize either the work that we do or specific optimization opportunities and the directors and VPs that are thinking about the broader goals of like, how are we doing in terms of our production?

How are we doing in terms of our unit economics? And so I like to think about organizing the teams  in that sort of structure in that account approach. Is there a particular like golden ratio you've found this many VPs to directors to associates or sorry, VPs and directors to managers to associates.

Yeah, it's a good question. I would say generally one, two and four works. And you can start to scale from that, depending on where, like the size of these, some of these programs yeah. Where that gets tricky Rex is  where you're at in that sort of evolution of that channel.  If that's a run-rate then the one, two and four probably is more than fine.

Yeah. But if you're trying to build this up and you are not sure how, like you're in that pilot phase or optimization phase, you actually might be a bit more top heavy with people who are doers and strategists. And so I always try to remind myself of like where we are in that process, because that will end up becoming change kind of the work, not the workflow, but the the ratio a little bit more because if you're trying to figure out something.

And it's hard work and we know that's hard work to figure out some of these new channels and stand them up and make them successful. It's unlikely that a brand new analyst will be able to do a lot of that themselves. So you need that subject matter expert, a bit more of an experienced person. Who's connecting the strategy to the tactics and figuring out how this is going to work.

That makes total sense. I love how you broke that down depending on the stage of development that you're at with each channel. That makes perfect sense. Okay. So Kevin, thank you for being on the show. We greatly appreciate your wisdom and insight here, who are some other marketers out there who you maybe look up to that you've perhaps even worked with or mentored in the past or those who we should be aware of and maybe even invite on the show?

I'll tell you one of my you go through your career and you always have these great career experiences and you work for certain incredible people. And so one of the folks that was like instrumental in my long-term success was Tim Kopp, who was the CMO. When I was at ExactTarget, he went on to become a VC in Chicago.

And now as the CEO of Terminus and what's interesting is he's bringing back some of the old band from the ExactTarget days to Terminus so there's some really great people that are over there now. Sangram Vajre who I worked with, had the opportunity to work with at ExactTarget. Daniel Incandela, who's a CMO like that's a bit of a top, like that's a bit of a heavy, sort of a Terminus thing, but these are guys that I really respect and they do great things and I'm always learning from following them on social and everything like that.

Great recommendations. Yeah, those are great folks. I'm trying to think other folks along the way, another person I've worked with for a long time is Jeremy Collins. I think he's probably one of the sharpest minds you've got around marketing building out organizations, demand generation this connection between sales and marketing he's was just really great at thinking through some of those challenges and those problems.

Having seen Jeremy work. I agree with you and we'll definitely invite him on the show. I think that would be a fantastic guest. We'd love to hear from him. Kevin, thank you so much again for your time. And when people want to go learn more from you, maybe follow you online and certainly learn more about the Aurea software experience and brand.

Where can they find more information about you guys? They can find me specifically  on Twitter by, hitting me up on LinkedIn and then if they want more on the Aurea story, , we think about it as the Netflix of software, so they can always go to our website and learn more about that story.

So very cool. And that's Aurea.com. That's right. Perfect. Very good, Kevin, thanks again for joining us and we appreciate your insights. Cool. Thank you.


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