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How to Take Smart Risks and Sell Big Ideas Up the Food Chain

Rex Biberston
Mar 23, 2021 10:06:49 AM

Growth Marketing Camp, Ep. 9

How to Take Smart Risks and Sell Big Ideas Up the Food Chain

Jarrett Stanley runs marketing at Southern Trust Mortgage, easily one of the most innovative mortgage companies you’ll find. But it wasn’t always that way. Jarrett took calculated risks and pulled off big changes. In this episode he breaks down exactly how you can do the same! And if you yawned as soon as you heard “mortgage,” you’re in for a special treat. Jarrett explains how he turned mortgages from a line on a spreadsheet into a beautiful moment for their customers.

powered by Sounder


Here's what you can expect on today's episode:

  • 4:00 - Building a sustainable and impactful brand
  • 8:00 - Converting the highest moment of intent for a buyer
  • 12:00 - Stop trying to make your MVP perfect 
  • 20:00 - Taking a leap - be greater than you are

Read the full transcript:

All right. Welcome to this episode of Growth Marketing Camp. We're joined by Jarrett Stanley, the Senior Vice President of marketing at Southern Trust Mortgage. Jarrett  super excited to have you on the show. And I know you've got a really unique take on a pretty commoditized space. So welcome.

Thanks Rex man. I was happy, delighted, surprise, and all around. Just excited to be on the show. When you invited me out, I've checked out some of the episodes, see what you guys are doing. I love it. So happy to be here and share my story and my take. Awesome. So let's dig into your take and your background and where you come from.

Cause I think this influences everything that you're doing today. So a couple of things, I did my little social stocking research here. I would call you a multi-faceted marketer, you came up through graphic design. I was noticing you've got some background in music, which is awesome as I do.

If you see the guitar here behind me, like love music, that definitely plays a part in the creative effort. But also notice you're into programming. So like you got certified with lynda.com in iOS app development, for example. Talk to me a little about how all of that mixes into what you think of as marketing and how you execute today.

Well, it's funny. The diversity of what I've done sort of has come from a bit of necessity. So I think going back to where I started in marketing, it was more about actually the relationship that I had with my father. And it's an interesting backstory. I have a really great relationship with my dad.

And you mentioned music. Music has always been a passionate life. I've been playing it since middle school. I just love playing music. And for the longest time I wanted music to be my career. As you more than likely know, or anybody who's tried their hand at music, it is very difficult to make a long-term sustainable career through music.

And that's why people, especially if you're trying to do it like in a band setting most people end up splintering out into doing things like producing or into doing things like tour support. But as we've seen, it's a very Rocky and tumultuous place to try to make a consistent living.

I never wanted to do the traditional business route. My dad owned his own mortgage brokerage and owned his own life insurance brokerage. So I sort of grew up under the cubicle and when I wasn't doing creative work, I was always, checking out to see if he needed any help.

And I have a really great relationship with my dad. So I wanted to do everything that I could to try to help him. So when I was sort of at a crossroads about what I wanted to do with my life after I graduated high school, I decided, I will still do music as much as I can, but I also want to pursue marketing.

Marketing was something that I could still be creative in and help people like my father who did not speak the creative language at all. So it was somewhere that I could meet in the middle to one, support my family in a sustainable way and support my dad, who I cared about deeply and still be creative to where I didn't feel like I had a job that was something I didn't look forward to going to every day.

So that's really the story. And once I kind of. Dove into that. I just got all in. Cause I realized that in the mortgage market space, this is after the '08 crash. So I realized that everything's still from that point on, from FinTech to just UI UX in the financial space, not just a mortgage has been in the financial space was awful.

That space really hadn't been touched by a lot of what was sort of emerging in other more progressive spaces. So I saw it as an opportunity to really take my best shot at trying to take experiences that I would want to have and build them out. Everywhere else now. That was difficult because I had to, I essentially started in a broom closet, which is a laptop, not knowing how to do programming or not knowing how to build the website, not knowing how to shoot the video, to host on the website.

Like it was just lynda.com. Again, online resources. You could pretty much learn anything you want online now. So everything that I didn't learn in school, I supplemented in real time experience, just trial and error, and it's all sort of culminated over the past 15 years, working in mortgages to where.

You can build sustainable and impacting brands. You just have to know sort of creatively how to tell that story, so it's been a wild ride for sure. But it's definitely not over yet. And I'm excited about where we're at. Yeah. I'm going to ask the question that maybe undersells all of what you just described, but tell me about what the company does and for whom, right?

Let's just talk about your target audience and what you offer. Okay, so Southern Trust Mortgage obviously it's in the name of the company. It's a mortgage company. However one of the things that Southern trust does is it really, we try to see what we sell as a vehicle like mortgages in themselves are not really the end.

They're the means. To the end. And it's a mentality that I try to instill in everybody that we work with, that, nobody wakes up in the morning and says, you know, what I'd really love today is I'd really love a mortgage. that's not something it's almost a bad word, right? Yeah. I mean, mortgages, insurance, all these types of things that are needed, they do have kind of a negative connotation to them because they're always associated with something bad.

Like mortgage actually means life debt. Like it's not something that is a pleasant. Thought, however, what it enables is the pleasant thought. So you have things like empty nesters, finding a new home after their children leave to go off to college people finding their first place as a new couple people moving up in house when they want to have a baby, like all these things are centered around really.

Highly emotional life events. And it's our job to really try to help people streamline it, focus on the happiness of what's happening because of the mortgage. Not necessarily to say we want you to be, become a mortgage expert. So  Southern Trust Mortgage. We work with home buyers. We work with people who are buying refinances investors, the gamut of people who.

Need financial services. We also work with a real estate agents in our area, mortgage lenders and real estate agents are like peas in a pod. There are two sides of the same coin builders. Obviously we work with them. So, I mean, we work with the whole host of people that provide different services, but ultimately the end of the day, the goal is to provide home ownership to as many people. as possible.

Yeah. I love that. I mean, being able to hear the stories and they all resonate with all of us, right? We've all experienced. At least one of those life events, either directly or indirectly. We've all seen those things happen and they are very. Emotional to be able to bring that into such a, we say commoditized, but also just kind of like that negative connotation, remove that and focus on the good and exciting.

that's a great approach. It's also very challenging to run marketing to so many different audiences. So you're talking about, yeah. At the end of the day, here's who we work for, but here's where we work. If there's a bunch of folks, and I know we're going to talk about a campaign where you were working, particularly with partners.

Particularly builders. So let's break into that and tell me who was the audience like relative to your partnership with them? Who were the partners that you were trying to target?

What was this campaign all about? So the program that we ended up building we called our builder partnership program. It really is targeted towards small to mid tier level builder, somebody who isn't necessarily nationwide. And it's really meant to fill in the marketing gaps for folks who are really good at what they're good at, but they maybe not have the marketing support that some of these really large.

Flagship companies may have out there. So we said, we want to be the best partners that we possibly can. We don't want to be the lender that goes with the handouts, the partner that says, Hey, Sir, or Madam, can I please have a loan? Can you feed me borrowers? We want to be more than that.

So for us, we saw marketing as a place to fill that gap and provide value upfront before a transaction occurs. And when you do that, that really. Solidifies relationships longterm, because now you're doing something to move their bottom line, as opposed to you just being a by-product of something, they need to cross the finish line in there.

So we're actually working to sell more homes for the partner. Now, the way that works is as we were talking about before we started Is we built out a kiosk system. So a tablet kiosk system that sits inside of the builder's model home and it replaces the pen and paper traditional sign-in. So this does a couple things.

This helps the agent get their weekend back, so they don't have to go in and try to decipher someone's handwriting. It gets. More accurate information because you actually have to type it in. You're not actually having to try to read somebody, if they're not legible or not, and put it in a spreadsheet, it gives information transparency about who actually visited the home.

You believe it or not. Some of this data never makes it to the right end destination in a database. Now that we control the mechanism by which information is ingested, we can disperse it to any CRM. We can disperse it to any Google doc anywhere we want. And it's just such a way to make sure that we can convert on the highest moment of intent for that buyer.

Like we were saying, it's, you know, it's like opportunity costs, right? Like most people work towards the weekends where they just want to relax. Okay. Well, most people go house hunting on the weekends, so they are omitting that time to relax and recharge, to go do something that they deem is probably very likely in the future.

So they're scouting. If we know that their intent is very high, so we want to try to win the day through a great user experience. Before, during, and after their process and by us playing that role with the builder, we've solidified so many relationships just by doing that.

It's much better than trying to have a race to the bottom mentality with partnerships. Yeah. That's fantastic. I want to ask it a little bit deeper on the, how you executed this. How did you get this into the hands of these part of the builders was this one-to-one relationship you already had?

Did you have to go out and establish these because. It sounds like the exact right motion that fits in the exact right timing for the end buyer. Who's considering purchasing the home. How did you actually get that done? Because that's a big move for them to be willing, to abandon a process that they were already doing for probably decades.

I mean, a lot of these builders have been around for a long time. Getting rid of pen and paper might be uncomfortable as much as, you know, you pitch this as get your weekend back, which I think is a brilliant line. But how did you get this into their hands? Yeah. So that's, like anything, Trying to convince somebody of an idea that's new versus an idea that they're comfortable with can always be difficult.

So for us, it really involved not necessarily just letting the loan officer who was our sales agent, but me personally, and my digital marketing manager who works in our department, getting in the car, taking a kiosk unit, getting an appointment through the loan officer and going and speaking with oftentimes the president of these companies and saying: "Hey, listen, we want to talk and build your business.

Here's an idea that we thought of, that may help you. You can feel free to reject it. You can feel free to adopt it. It's not going to cost you hardly anything here". I think even if we get rejected that still does show the fact that, none of these other lenders are coming in the door offering ways of improving the business, just because we wanted to. We had to put time and effort into creating the system that would work, a system that would work with all open APIs, a system that had turnkey automation tied to it.

And also putting together all the documentation and presentations and agreements that goes with this. I mean, it was an undertaking, however, I would say the majority of people before we leave that meeting, ask if we have a unit in the car that we're willing to give them to put in their model right now. Mortgages and  many other professions like this, there's so many politics involved and you would get discussions about, well, what are the other lenders that are associated with my building community

are gonna think? Like we would go up against other competitors that are also fighting for the deals in those communities. It paints us in such a positive light cause everyone else was going in with that hand out mentality. You're going in with that hand up mentality, saying: "We care about you as a partner, let us help you build your business".

I think the perception of the builder is incredibly important, just that you would take your time out to build something, not knowing if it was going to get adopted and not simply for the fact that you wanted to enhance the relationship. And lots of times that's all the open door that you really need.

Yeah, boy, that's incredible. There's definitely some takeaways from that. I love that. I imagine that you learned a lot from this experience that you're translated into next steps on new campaigns, but let's talk about. The things that you learned, that if you could start over, if you could say, Hey let's do this all over again.

Is it always have a kiosk in the trunk? Like one of those things that you've picked up on that, are going to influence you, if you did it again, that's a good question. I think I would say to not try to make it perfect in your MVP, Oftentimes I think as creatives or people who

maybe have a little bit of a perfectionist mentality, it can be easy to not ship a product because you don't feel like it's done yet. We had all these ideas about how we wanted to build texting into the module. So for instance, like when somebody signs in to the home we would do it on a time delay,

and then within an hour, they would get a quote text from the agent with a video attached to it and everything. We were able to do that with emails, but we saw that texting had such a higher open rate and engagement rate, and we could start the dialogue with that person through that medium, easier than responding through emails.

We're still not there yet. There's a couple things that really have to be kind of ironed out and put into place, but there was a temptation for me. It was like, we have to have texting day one, or this isn't going to work. Now, if I would've gone with that mentality, like we have over 20 kiosk installations with 20 different builders have been on the East coast

now. If I would have kept that mentality of it's got to have this, we would have zero relationships that are built on the kiosk relationship. We would have none of those right now. And I can always go back and say, roll out a patch that includes that and push it via mobile device management to this kiosk,

and then it would still work. The point is that, I know what I know so I know what I wanted and I know what was possible. When you go talk to your audience, it's mainly about trying to empathize with what they know and their situation that they're in. Right now, those folks were working with nothing.

They were working with pen and paper. So the evolution of pen to paper to kiosk is like a five-step jump. And then you adding texting on it, that's like the sixth step. So if I would have, just mentally been blocked by saying, I can't sell this because the five steps beneath that aren't good enough in my mind, in their mind it was plenty

good enough. So taking myself out of the equation of focusing more on the audience's needs and goals, like that's marketing one-on-one, but we oftentimes disregard it when we should be listening to it. Yeah. Boy, that happens to all of us all the time. Right? Like we get stuck in our own perfectionism, I think, especially for creatives.

It's really true. I imagine this has influenced campaigns and other channels or other partner relationships. What have you guys been maybe adopting differently or trying now that you've seen the success of the kiosk campaign? So I think this definitely opened a lot of eyes in terms of context based marketing.

So there's the term of like account based marketing. So like you send marketing based upon a user behavior. That's either stored in the browser cache or somewhere that's,  you know, all you're trying to do is really send in, more targeted message based upon somebody implied intent.

That's all you're really trying to do so you can really take that mentality and put it everywhere. You can try to do as much as you can. Now it takes a little bit time to build out. Cause you got to try to think about all the potential scenarios and when you're serving multiple audiences, that can become pretty staggering pretty quickly.

However, we've done things like we offer credit training for continuing education to our realtor partners. So because we are licensed to do that, that was one item that says, Okay when somebody comes in actually to a class, why don't we have them sign in through one of our kiosk solutions and an a tag or assign a lead source of credit class and age, a credit class.

And based on the fact that they came to edgy credit costs, I can send them material that's relevant to the experience that they just had. It's now sort of a game of scale and money. So if I can give that just to the teacher, I know that everywhere the teacher goes, they can 

use this mechanism and just assign the loan officer that is hosting the class, as opposed to giving every loan officer a tablet and having them select the class. So I get, 10 to one just by doing it. The inverse way. So now that you've sort of got the power or have got the launchpad as it were you just trying to figure out sort of which direction.

So classes are definitely one that we're doing. So once COVID-19 it's not going to continue to pass, but once it becomes manageable and people, emerge from their homes for our partners, for real estate partners and things like open houses, This will be key. So again, we talk about anywhere there's pen and paper.

This can potentially replace anywhere. There's a sign in sheet could potentially replace. So agents who are hosting a open house, why not? Why doesn't the law officer bring a tablet or a kiosk and sign in and have it co-branded that way. Once they leave there, they get an email co-branded between that agent and that loan officer thanking them for coming in and they want to talk with them.

So. I just think it's an open door to looking at where people are looking at the high level of intent and then really hammering home a marketing message that is unique to what their actions were. And if you can do that, then that beats, cold forming all that. Yeah. Boy, there's so many gems in there.

I think one that I want to call out is that despite maybe an interest in technology, despite seeing that technology is an advantage, you didn't put technology in place here. Just for the sake of saying, Hey, we're more innovative. It was literally to solve a very specific problem. Hey, we don't have data that we should have, or we're not serving people in a way that we could, if we had that data.

So then extending out, okay, how do we get that data more easily? But then it's also the benefit for the person who's filling out that form. It's a more comfortable experience. I mean, there's so many things that may technology, the writings are. But I think just for the audience listening and watching, remember that's not always the case that technology does not have to be the solution in this case.

It definitely was what a clear win for you guys. That's great. Tell me a little bit about the structure of the marketing department there, because I'm fascinated to hear, how did you pull something like this off? I mean, there's hardware, software, there's relationships, and one to one relationship.

This is not like an email list you hit up and said, Hey, we'd love to put a kiosk, you know, at your next place. What's the team like that. What's the structure. So our team the marketing team at, Southern Trust, we operate like a small agency inside of a larger company. So we act like an agency that has one big client pretty much and that client has a lot of, I guess, tentacles or branches.

So, I run the team. We have 11 people on staff. In marketing. So we have, graphic designers, photographer, videographer, we're in the studio, I'm in a studio right now. I used to do this role. So I didn't have to call on our videographer to get set up. But as you can see, like some of the stuff that we've been talking about, like investing in this because of you want to use your experience that a certain way.

We have in-house developers. Like we have two developers in house like we build our own websites, we build a manager on mobile apps. This is kiosk solution. This stuff was built in house. So it really does give us a competitive advantage. Even though it requires more sweat equity as we, we sort of buy some things off the rack as it were for like critical development foundations.

But because we have the development prowess in-house right. We're able to take sort of the ball of clay and mold it into something else that we really want it to. We really want it to end up being like, for instance, our partners Total Expert, I'll give them a shout out.

For our CRM provider, they are the ones that are able to have an open API that ingests our form, our kiosk. Build out. So all we really had to do was figure out how to make the form modularized, how to get it to somewhere. And it had to transport it into a couple different locations. So again, we're not building the CRM, but we have the know-how and the knowledge to take things that are sort of at a sea level and make them in a level, which I think really helps us to stand out in a very commoditized space.

So, yeah. All that being said we've got a bunch of people in here who really have a passion and a goal To make home happen. That's our tagline. Right? So we do that through marketing and technology, and it's really cool to be able to do probably 95% of it in-house with the team.

It's amazing. I'm curious, knowing that even just saying, Hey, we have a couple of developers in-house on the marketing team. That's an incredible ask of senior management. So I'm curious, was this kind of a part of Southern trust before you came into it? Was there like a DNA of innovation were they always looking for new solutions?

Or did you bring this to the table? I know. Started out as VP moved up into Senior Vice President. Was this just always there or have you had to sell this internally or what have you learned? Yeah, I mean, I have to sell it internally. I think there's always an element of continually selling yourself internally, especially when, the path forward, isn't always crystal clear.

It can be very difficult to ask people to trust you. And I think things were a little bit slower moving upfront. Like when I go to the owner of the company and say, Hey, I need $35,000 to buy camera equipment when they've never. Shot a video in their entire life. It can be a little bit difficult to get a yes.

So for instance, this gear, I had a bunch of it myself. I came in, I shot at guerrilla style and I shot it as much as I possibly could with the gear that I had. And then lo and behold, I start turning out videos and then they see sort of, I use that sort of as a proof of concept, it gets back into the idea that you asked me at the beginning of the interview, why did you learn to do so many things?

And the reason I learned to do so many things, just so that I could prove that it can be done. And then when people that have the money, see that it can be done, they pour a lot. They poured. Gasoline on the fire. So lots of times, that's how you can kind of get around these initial nos. A lot of times you get around i.

Cause they haven't seen it.  Like for instance, the builder, the builder kiosk. If I go to these builder kiosk meetings and don't bring a kiosk and I just show them a PowerPoint or a picture of it, it's substantially less powerful than if I actually walked them through on the tablet itself.

And they see it with their own eyes sort of the same idea. So when it comes to pitching what Southern trust was in 2016 versus what it is today? Yeah, none of this stuff existed. All of our website stuff was outsourced. We had no developers and staff, but we quickly realized that who we wanted to become required more effort than what we could effectively contract in a way that was like we were being penny smart and dollar stupid.

So let's be let's take a leap here. Let's put some efforts and let's really do a really well-rounded project doc and get this stuff done in house. And if it fails, we can always pivot back to what we were , but it just, you have to take a little bit of risk to be, greater than you already are.

I mean, it's, that's, that's it, right? Like you're comfortable where you are going somewhere new and being something better. I was always uncomfortable. So, I'm just glad that we've got folks in Southern Trust who see the vision and see what this company wants to be. And aren't afraid to take chances.

So a group like us thrives in that environment. Yeah. It seems like the perfect combination of you're willing to run an MVP right. Show that this is a thing that can and should be done. They're willing to trust you to take it on and kind of that third step you're willing to take on the risk that if it fails, like that's kinda your head, like you've said, this is where I'm placing my chips.

I'm willing to bet on this thing. Because if it goes poorly, sure. The company can recover. It doesn't necessarily mean that you will be along for that ride, right? There's an inherent risk in doing risky things for you individually, not just for the brand. I love that. I mean, that's such a good lesson to all of us, do the work, prove that it can be done, highlighted it should be done given more than just the concept, because that is definitely where the vision fails.

If you're a creative person and you're selling this up, Really hard to sell up something that's just talking points. Right. So I love that you've done these MVPs that you've been willing to go through that extra hard work. I think that does make all the difference here. And obviously your team was willing to buy in.

It's not just that you're a really good sales person, which I imagine that you are. But it's also they wanted this, they wanted to see this come to fruition. So they believed in you and took the gamble. That's great. Yeah. And I would say also that, for leaders out there who are leading people, like I have people who lead me, I lead people in my group.

But I think a key aspect of that is encouraging an environment where it's okay to fail. I don't like the idea that. If somebody comes to me and they have a great idea that I stifled them from giving me or this company, any great idea, because their first idea didn't work. I love the mentality that somebody cares enough to not be a clock puncher that just comes in and says, I want to build something great.

Here's what it is. That mentality is what breeds success. It's not always, you're not always going to be, you know, 10 for 10 hitting home runs every single time. You know, like there was a couple of times in, in some things like in development that we've fallen on our faces. There've been a couple, there's been a couple of things that just haven't worked, but you know, probably eight out of 10 things work really well and they move the needle.

But if people were scared to submit ideas because they were scared to fail because. Leadership basically says it's like, we can't be blamed for anything that goes wrong. It's your fault. No, one's going to submit an idea. Cause they just don't want their responsibility. So if you're in leadership, just being encouraged to take chances and I think it's more important that the mentality of growth exceeds the mentality of fear.

Boy, that's a good one. That's a great line. So I guess now turning this to the broader audience and thinking about growth marketing. What are some things that you see growth marketers out there, people who are trying to build success or trying to grow, what do you see them maybe doing? They should stop or things that they're not yet doing that they should consider doing now?

So things that growth marketers should do that they should stop actually is the opposite of my playbook. And it's something that I've had to learn as I grow in my career. And that's trying to do everything yourself. I had to for a long time. And the reason why I had to was because I was just in an industry that didn't understand what we were doing for a very long time.

So it wasn't that I couldn't hire anybody to do it. It was just that. People didn't believe that it was even necessary at the time. Everything was just dollars and cents. You get your mortgage. it's not a dog and pony show. It's not an emotional connection. It's a byline on a spreadsheet and that's it.

So who cares about marketing? We would rather take the money and, you know, keep that as a part of our P&L then invest in making that. So that has completely changed, but it changed because you could sort of, you see the writing on the wall, that it was evolving into that type of sphere.

For me, I've had to sort of unlearn that behavior. And the reason why I've had to unlearn it is because now when things start to succeed, they start to outgrow you. And when they start to outgrow you, it can become very difficult to let go of the fine tooth comb level of control that you've had over every single aspect.

And trusting people to come in and be as passionate as you to execute on their part of what you're building together. It can take some getting used to because you've just been doing it, used to doing it all yourself. But that is the thing that I've been learning over the past few years. And it's amazing, the more that I sort of let go of the reins of that, and just sort of be the guardrails for people.

The product ends up being so much better because I'm not burned out. I'm not stressed out. I can play the role that I need to play and help people do what they're great at. And just enable people like the more you grow, the more you need to enable from the top and not necessarily be the person executing every single day.

So that's been something I've been working on. And then you said what people should be doing. Yeah. Again, something that I didn't do for a very long time is probably just picking your head up. And looking around, a lot of times we're so we're so convinced that in the vortex or echo chamber of our own ideas, being the right ones that maybe we aren't right.

And sometimes you get that just by the exposure to what other people are doing in your marketplace, as well as. A lot of the reasons why the marketing evolution here at Southern Trust worked was because we looked at places outside of marketing. We looked at places where, what does is a standard customer experience that you get every day that is now sort of becoming.

Benchmark. So don't try to do things. Don't try to evolve into something that's under benchmark, or don't try to strive for something that isn't as good as what you're already getting. If that takes taking all the pieces, all the chess pieces off the board and trying to actually put them back in the right place, then that's probably a better use of your time, try to build something that is more in line with.

What the future looks like then what the present looks like. Because by the time you execute on the present, it will become the past. You need to start looking towards the way people will behave in the future. And if you do that, then you become the trendsetter. You don't become the follower. And that can be very difficult because if you don't look around and try to think what's next, it becomes you're always behind.

So having that mentality of looking forward and trying to develop the future, again, going back to permission to fail the future doesn't exist yet. So developing things that aren't necessarily real or have an element of risk to them. Have that mentality of it's okay to fail because when you win, you'll win big.

And when you lose, you lose small. Oh, I love it. Love it. Yeah. That totally resonates with me. I appreciate you coming on the show. I guess the last question here is who are the marketers who you look up to maybe in looking around at the marketplace outside, even of mortgages, right?

Where there's marketers, you look up to maybe doing something interesting or exciting that you know, that we obviously should invite on the show, but the people should be following. Yeah, absolutely. Some folks in the industry that I just got to give a shout out to that are my colleagues and people that I really look up to and admire.

And we were in different companies, but we bounce ideas all the time off of each other. So, people like Mel Marsh Katherine Campbell Sue Woodard chief customer officer, at Total Expert. My friend Trey Rigdon, who runs marketing for Wyndham Capital Mortgage, Trey. And I started in the marketing industry, way back when we were both in broom closets, and now we're both running respective companies, which is really cool.

Jake Fehling at Movement Mortgage. These guys are awesome. So there's some really great people doing some amazing things in our space and they're worth your attention if you would like to look at them. And also some, just some great marketing minds that I really enjoy. Two of them that actually three of them that come to mind is Simon Sineck.

One of his books "Start with Why" is one of my favorite books in terms of just getting the mindset, right. Jocko Willink, "Extreme Ownership", a fantastic book stories from Navy seals in Ramadi. An amazing book on being able to have fast Twitch yet. Calculated leadership decisions.

That's a great book that would be wise to be read. And Jay Baer, a book called "Talk Triggers" amazing book talks about, you know, like I'll give you an example. One of the things that we've done traditionally in the mortgage industry is a closing basket. So like a closing gift, right?

It's like, you know, 30, 35 to $50. It's got some wine in it. It's got a logo on it. It's got some stuff, right. That's not a talk trigger. That's just a gift. It's like a gift card. So some things that like my team are working on is, again, context, finding out the why behind somebody's story of why they're getting a mortgage in the first place and doing our best to contextually, give to them or give to them in a way that that solves a pain point or a problem that is able to be talked about and then giving them an Avenue to talk about it in a way that's measurable and quantifiable.

So those are the types of things that are talked about. Doing everything as a part of your customer journey on purpose talk triggers is a great book to read. So all those folks right there, you would do yourself a very great service too, to Google them and check them out. Amazing. I love it. Jarrett,  thank you for joining us. Thanks for sharing what you've learned, how you've grown. I know there's a ton of lessons in there for ourselves. The number one reason that I wanted to create Growth Marketing Camp was for my own benefit. I'm a long-time sales guy breaking into the market, you know, the last couple of companies that I've been a part of.

And I love to hear outside perspective, like what you're doing in the mortgage industry. Doesn't obviously tie to what we're doing in the software industry, but man, the lessons that I just grabbed out of what you were sharing, I think that's kind of picking our head up and looking around and learning from others.

There's some opportunities here. So thank you for joining us on the show and your very valuable perspective here. And if people want to follow, you learn more about you and about your company, where should they go?  So you can find my company Southerntrust.com. Be Have it to talk with you. You can find me on LinkedIn under Jarrett Stanley.

I'd be happy to start a conversation with you there. As well as, you know, the usual suspect places I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram. So just Google, Jarrett Stanley or search Jarrett Stanley and you'll find me. But yeah, Rex, thanks for having me on the program. I really appreciate it. It was great speaking with you and love the show.

Thanks and keep it up. Thank you.

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